BizTech Superhero

Joshua McNary [00:00:00]:
Welcome to the BizTech superhero, the podcast that empowers you to unleash the technology superpowers within your business. I'm your host, Joshua McNary. I'm joined by today's superhero, Mat Weingarten, product coach and mentor based in Iowa City, Iowa. I'm looking forward to discussing technology with Mat in relation to his work as a product coach. Mat, welcome to the show.

Mat Winegarden [00:00:20]:
Hey. Thanks, Josh. Good to be here.

Joshua McNary [00:00:22]:
So for folks just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Mat Winegarden [00:00:27]:
Yeah. So I've been in the product and technology space for a little over twenty five years, which is kinda scary to say. That means that I'm old. But I've been in different industries and verticals, like entertainment, agriculture, education technology, artificial intelligence, a lot of different and throughout my journey, I've also worn a lot of different hats. So I've been a designer, developer, product manager. I've started my own companies. But, really, I'm now focused on helping leaders and their teams build better products and better ways of working as a product coach. So for those that aren't familiar with what that even means or what that does, you can kind of think about it as a strategic partner that helps your teams make smarter decisions, move faster, and build products that your customers want.

Mat Winegarden [00:01:16]:
So it could be through technology, could be processes, it could be collaboration. It's a lot of different stuff. I kinda think about it as operations, but there's a lot of different ways that that we can think about that. So, I currently do that at a large EdTech company and then through my own consultancy called Gluon.

Joshua McNary [00:01:35]:
Great. Great. Okay. Cool. So just for a little more context on that, I mean, your work primarily is around technology software based type things. That's kinda your angle, right, versus kinda generic, project management or operations.

Mat Winegarden [00:01:48]:
Yeah. I think that's a a good way to think about it because I've been in both, like, physical products, but really the wheelhouse is in software.

Joshua McNary [00:01:55]:
Okay. Got it. Great. Just for a little more context. I mean, I think some of the things you're gonna share would apply to any kind of organization, with regards to, you know, your work. I think I I know I in my own work and as a service type company, there's a lot of things I'm sure I can learn from you. But, but with that in mind, I know you have that software background, which is really cool.

Mat Winegarden [00:02:12]:
Yeah. And and I've even helped, like, nonprofit organizations that are completely service based, you know, to help them be, you know, more aligned, effective, and efficient in general. So, yeah, it can it can apply to a lot of different things.

Joshua McNary [00:02:24]:
Great. Great. Okay. Well, let's start out talking about how you're using technology. Using technology? So can you tell us about how you're incorporating tech into your work, in your your consultancy or in in the big firm that you work for?

Mat Winegarden [00:02:36]:
Yeah. So kind of building off that software concept, you know, technology really is the core of what most teams are using. You know, whether they're creating that technology, they're partnering, they're buying whatever. But in my role, what I do is I kind of take a step back and I think about what are the outcomes that we're trying to achieve as kind of the starting point for technology. So what are the real problems we're trying to solve? What does success look like if we use this piece piece of technology and get this right? And then I take a look at what solutions might be out there or what we might build, that is the simplest and most flexible way to enable what we're trying to solve or, or, you know, achieve. So sometimes it's directly tech, but sometimes it's process shift or roles and responsibilities. But when that that sort of choice of technology, again, if it's something we build by our partner, I help these teams figure out how we're gonna fit it in their current workflow, what behaviors it's meant to change, and then how can we scale this? You know, so it's sort of long lasting or everlasting with these groups.

Joshua McNary [00:03:45]:
Right. Okay. So in that process, you talked about sometimes it's software or technology. Sometimes it's a process change or, like, a human change. That's what I heard you say. Is that is that an accurate way of of kinda summarizing what the kind of work you're doing?

Mat Winegarden [00:03:59]:
Yeah. And, you know, that human change, that that really is kinda closely tied with technology anyway because people do have to change their behaviors with technology. Hopefully, not too much. But if we're trying to accomplish something, whether it's growing in revenue or it's getting more customers or whatever that kinda looks like, it is how do those two things play in concert? It's the human side and also the technology side. So it's those have to fit and work really well in order for technology to work in your organization anyway?

Joshua McNary [00:04:28]:
To be technology, you need the people to use the technology well. And I think that's why I I I pointed that out because in my work, that's often a theme I I bring out because we think of technology as this thing that could fix problems, but, ultimately, it interacts with the humans. And in today's day and age, with our own artificial intelligence stuff, there's a lot of the conversation about these things merging and becoming more more like each other in a way. But but that being said, I mean, you're helping to make the decision in your role where to where to push the buttons around that is it a tech problem or is it the human problem or some interfacing of that, again, which kinda goes back to the AI thing since AI one of the big amazing things that's changed is the ability to have interface in a more human way with us.

Mat Winegarden [00:05:11]:
Yeah. Totally. And kind of pulling on the AI thread a little bit. You know, it it's definitely a really hot thing and has been for a while. And there's a lot of organizations, and I've been a part of them, where they think that AI is going to solve all of their problems to your point. Mhmm. But it usually doesn't. It sometimes exacerbates the problems that are actually in there, because it still needs humans.

Mat Winegarden [00:05:33]:
It still needs information. It still needs guidance. It still needs upkeep. It still needs all of the things with that. So it's not a silver bullet. It's not a panacea. In my position, and I've been thinking about this a lot, is I don't think that AI, from a technology perspective, is really going to, kill jobs. You know, it it might displace some things.

Mat Winegarden [00:05:56]:
Yes. But the thing that I'm honestly afraid of is it's killing thinking. If we're relying on AI too much to do things, you know, so I use AI, and I've created GPTs and chatbots and whatever, and I actually use them quite a bit in, you know, my my day to day work to help brainstorm and, you know, work through sessions or whatever.

Joshua McNary [00:06:18]:
Mhmm.

Mat Winegarden [00:06:18]:
But, it still takes that human, you know, portion of it to connect the dots and, you know, come at it from a creative perspective to be able to actually solve real problems. Because as much as I love AI, it's it's a very arrogant, thing, and it wants to be right all the time. So you still have That

Joshua McNary [00:06:40]:
sounds like, certain certain fleshy beings on this earth at times, doesn't it?

Mat Winegarden [00:06:46]:
Yeah. It it it absolutely does. So yeah. In in both cases, you still need to have human intervention or governance, you know, around that and checks and balances. You know? Absolutely.

Joshua McNary [00:06:56]:
Right. Well, I I think, you know, this this AI conversation, we jumped right into the AI, and that's come up with all all all the guests at some point during during the show. Yeah. But the the interesting element here that goes back to your work and your history and and going back to your your your bio gave us earlier is technology has been doing this forever as long as our careers have been, you know, and and and beyond before that. It's just the speed at which we're seeing that technology being deployed and the the ability for that technology to interface with us in a in a, you know, natural language way, which is really what's changed in the AI space in the last few years.

Mat Winegarden [00:07:35]:
Yep. I

Joshua McNary [00:07:35]:
mean, back years ago when we were attending conferences together and such and doing things, you know, we were talking about us, technology type people we're talking about AI then in some context, but no one even knew what that really meant because they couldn't interface with Right. They can interface with. So that's what's really changed and then the speed of that innovation. So therefore, going back to your point about the thinking part is like, okay. It's that much easier to just apply the technology or think you're applying the technology to a benefit when in reality, you really should be thinking about that process change or the human over here that maybe something needs to change over there before running forward with the technology.

Mat Winegarden [00:08:10]:
Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.

Joshua McNary [00:08:12]:
So are there situations recent or maybe historically speaking that you could kinda tell us how that plays out in our organization or you've seen that kinda technology chasm past and and maybe kind of the symptoms and how that plays out for those that maybe maybe are in that situation but don't know that they've they're they've they've they've kinda maybe went down the wrong path of applying a technology when there's maybe some other things to think about?

Mat Winegarden [00:08:37]:
Yeah. I mean, so I I I encounter actually the challenges with technology quite a bit. And and I think I think there's a couple different things that it sort of stems from where people kinda get hung up on it. So one is trying to shoehorn technology as a solution without really understanding what they're trying to do with it. I I think that's a big one. And then the other one is following the trends. And if we I mean, we could keep sort of pulling on the AI thing a little bit, but, the hot new shiny thing. You know, people kinda get caught up in that too.

Mat Winegarden [00:09:09]:
So they're they're a little bit related. Sometimes you get sold on a particular solution. Sometimes you're excited about technology, and I'm not sure we're ever really gonna solve that. I think that's gonna continue all the time. You know? But kinda going back to that problem, you know, foundational thing, what I typically like to do, even if there's a shoehorn solution, even if there's a shiny penny or a new piece of technology, let's still figure out how we can make this work the way that the team needs it to work or leadership needs it to work. So if you're fortunate enough to be able to customize that tech technology or maybe change the approach a little bit, you know, that's fine. But I just kinda wanna keep pressing back on this this concept of needing to identify align on the problems that we're trying to solve and what we're trying to achieve to help to to make sure that technology is helping you actually do that even if you have gotten caught up in the trends and the shiny, you know, new solution that have come up.

Joshua McNary [00:10:09]:
Absolutely. I mean, that's you know, I could've couldn't say any better because that's the kind of stuff I say to my clients when they approach me and need a a thing done, some kind of some kind of technology applied or they're thinking about maybe considering some kind of technology to be applied. I come at a little bit different angle than you. You're you're working within teams and and and evolving products and such. Mine is more as a as an advisor to people trying to make decisions around the technologies that they may or may not choose to do based on my advisory. But, but that's part of where we have a lot in common, and we have that crossover because we're we're both think with that strategy in mind and and goal in mind first, which is awesome. So I guess within your your work then, coming back to to what you do day to day, when you're working within these teams, maybe working on a software product or some other kind of, out outcome that's been out defined, can you tell us a little bit more about, like, what happens within that and maybe how how you use technology within that experience of helping to make sure we stay focused on now the outcome that we've defined.

Mat Winegarden [00:11:09]:
Yeah. So just to reiterate, first, the outcome has to be clearly defined and aligned with everybody. And I think alignment is really the superpower for most teams and even, like, a competitive advantage. If everybody is rowing in the same direction, then you are in a good space. So what I do kind of from a product coach and operations perspective is I take a look at the entire team's operating system or ways of working. So, you know, from the very top, from the outcomes and the goals to how are teams communicating and interfacing, how are they, collaborating, how are they prioritizing. And then with that piece of technology, whatever it is, it could be a project management tool. It could be, you know, maybe some cloud services.

Mat Winegarden [00:11:53]:
It doesn't really matter. But trying to figure out when and where it makes the most sense to utilize those things in the product development life cycle. So where do you lean on them the most? And how do you help, utilize the technology to its superpowers during those phases? So, for example, if you're in the early sort of discovery or design, and you're implementing a new project management tool, how are you capturing the information from those sessions, those insights, those discovery items, and then sharing it with your team? And how is technology helping you out with that? Or if it's in the development stage, how are we keeping everybody up to date on, you know, what the progress is? Or after something has been launched, for example, how are we then, you know, utilizing that project management tool to, either communicate or measure that we've actually reached our particular outcomes? So I think about it from a holistic perspective to try to weave it into all of these different, places and pieces. So we're maximizing the technology for how we work.

Joshua McNary [00:12:55]:
Right. Okay. That makes total sense. And, of course, you know, we're gonna keep on going back, put the pin on the outcome, the alignment. Right? That's that's that's that's the main thing, and all the other stuff kinda falls into place. But then the, the idea of, leaving in or layering in the the technology solutions that we have, whether it be AI note takers from those meetings or, you know, the Slacks or the Discords of the world to be able to do asynchronous, communication or, you know, voice mail or whatever we're using to kinda capture the information. Those are all tools in service to that outcome. But there's also the practical matter that those tools kinda because they all have their own promises and things that they're providing, that's why a lot of times we get lost.

Joshua McNary [00:13:39]:
Right? Because we think, oh, it can do this or maybe it hit the Slack or whatever has scope creep. It starts to do this thing that we use to use this other tool for and now we lose the information and such. So I guess talk about maybe that. What practically speaking, how have you overcome that? Because we wanna stay aligned on that outcome. How do we not get lost in these other opportunities slash distractions of technology?

Mat Winegarden [00:14:01]:
Totally. Yeah. And and and I get it. From a company perspective that are actually making this technology or tools that we're using every day like Slack or, you know, the AI agents, chatbot, whatever. They're also trying to scale and diversify their particular business. So, yeah, they are overlapping in some of these areas. So one of the things from, like, a product operations and product coach perspective that is really important is to clearly define the role and responsibility of the technology, just like what you would do with a team member. Here's how we use it.

Mat Winegarden [00:14:35]:
Here's why we use it, and here's no goes on how we use it as well. So if you can sort of frame, hey, we use Slack. I'll just use as as an example. We use Slack for quick communication, but we don't use it for storing knowledge because it's terrible at it. Yeah. Worst email at storing knowledge. So please don't use this for any major decisions, even though it has, you know, different sort of whiteboarding and bookmarking things or whatever. It just becomes a black hole of information.

Mat Winegarden [00:15:07]:
So we use it for quick conversation. But if we're using something like confluence or maybe some other shareable document, that's where we're gonna keep our sources of truth. So if you can sort of put up these sort of rules and, responsibilities and role for your technology and have everybody on the same page, it makes life way easier.

Joshua McNary [00:15:27]:
That reminds me of in my business, at one point, created a a slide that was talking about okay. This is how we use, we were using Slack at the time. And then okay. That was asynchronous like you said. But then we also had, okay. What about text messaging each other? Like, that's kinda like Slack too, but that's more for direct like, that's more of an emergency. Right? Because that's now we're intruding a personal space and such as well. Yeah.

Joshua McNary [00:15:50]:
And that and that's right. And then, of course, there's also a phone call because now it's really urgent. It's on fire, and we have to deal with it right now. So call me. So we make sure we have that communication. And then on the flip side of that, going to other direction, would be, like, you you implied email. Okay. Email, that's, like, okay.

Joshua McNary [00:16:06]:
We're expecting reaction maybe a day later. Right? It's a a slower speed. And then maybe we have our weekly staff meetings, and we had a a tool that we kept track of notes there. So that would that would be even a slower pacing. So this had to do more with, like, the pacing of communication, but it relates to this idea of, like, putting the technology in a box so that everyone has expectations for it.

Mat Winegarden [00:16:28]:
Yep. Yep. Exactly. And and I love your communications, and the different levels and urgency, like, all of that. And and I think those mechanics definitely apply to all of the other pieces of technology. You know, you might change the labels and wording or whatever on it, but at least having a clear understanding and expectations of how to use that technology and when and who is really important.

Joshua McNary [00:16:50]:
So So in your experience, though, that it's a little harder to do in practical world because I have this argument or not sorry. Argument. This conversation, let's say, a lot with people I talk to about the documentation aspect of any kind of product or service. I mean, it's hard to stay up. As soon as you make an SOP on this, it's almost out of date instantaneously, right, because you're continuing to evolve dynamically as humans and your processes and certainly within technology. So I guess this idea of putting up these general dividers makes sense to me, but then that day to day evolution and, again, the technology sometimes adding new features, and we're seeing again that more and more going back to our earlier comment about AI, I I mean, every week there's new things happening within that space, and then that's getting applied downstream to other technology. So I guess, can you talk about that, like, the dynamic element of that and if there's any kind of tricks for the trade there about is it a quarterly, pacing that you kinda review this or these these these barriers you're putting up, or some other cadence that you use to try to make sure you kinda stay on top of this stuff, you know, in a perfect perfect situation?

Mat Winegarden [00:17:55]:
Yeah. So I think there's kind of a couple things that you're you're kinda digging at is how do we make sure that we have the right amount of governance yet flexibility in these particular tools, especially when it comes to, like, keeping documentation up to date? Because you're right. The second you write down something, it's out of date. So how do you continue to keep it sort of a living document but not go crazy? Because, you know, some people, they may be relying on this information. They've started work on this information. If it changes too often, then it's chaos. So, I mean, there's a couple of things that I think about from a governance and rhythm perspective. So governance, I like to use sort of frameworks like RACI or Dacey or Darcy when it comes to things specifically in communication? You know, who are the ones that are responsible or who are the ones that are driving or owning these particular things? And then who who are we okay with informing or consulting or allowing change to happen.

Mat Winegarden [00:18:54]:
But then how do we communicate out that change has happened? So if it's a minor thing, kind of going back to the levels of communication that you were just talking about, how do we then create a framework that says, if a small change has happened, how do we communicate that out? Because it's not that big of a deal. If it's a major change, how do we communicate that out? Because it's going to impact a lot of people who needs to have communication there. So those can be sort of like either the ad hoc, you know, types of things. How do we communicate this out? But I'm a fan of creating rhythms that make sense for your organization. So if you are a traditional agile type of, you know, group, you'll probably have a one week or two week, you know, sprint where you're working on things, then we get back together and we communicate and update that way. So you may have, you know, that sort of team level type of thing.

Joshua McNary [00:19:43]:
A built in cadence in that kind of environment.

Mat Winegarden [00:19:46]:
Exactly. So it's sort of already prescriptive. But I really enjoy a monthly and quarterly cadence as well. So how do we get the right people in the room cross functionally in leadership to be on the same page, whether it's async or sync to say, hey. Here's the things that have happened over a month's time. Here's the things that we're thinking about, and here's the things that have changed. So at least in that monthly cadence and quarterly change or quarterly cadence at different Zoom levels,

Joshua McNary [00:20:15]:
you

Mat Winegarden [00:20:15]:
know, because we're taking a look at at different time periods, I enjoy that. But sometimes that doesn't work for every single organization. So you sort of you have to start somewhere and then figure out what the rhythm is that works the best for you and then stick with it for a while, at least ninety days. Don't change it a lot, and then you can start to tweak and change and figure out what's the best rhythm for you.

Joshua McNary [00:20:36]:
You have to be patient, measured, while also taking action in what you're doing and and trying to learn from it.

Mat Winegarden [00:20:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. Give it and and give it a give it a beat. Give it a minute. Try it for a bit. Don't because I've also been in organizations and teams where, you know, there's a lot of complaining upfront and criticizing and, this isn't gonna work. We're gonna stop after a week. Okay.

Mat Winegarden [00:20:57]:
Maybe. But let's give it a little bit of time to see if it actually works or what the real pain points are. Let's experience that for a little bit, and then we can update.

Joshua McNary [00:21:06]:
You need the data to be able to to know what to update and how to how to proceed and how to improve upon your process, which is what we're all talking about here in the first place, right, is is processes and and being better about getting to our outcomes, which is where we started.

Mat Winegarden [00:21:18]:
Yep. Exactly.

Joshua McNary [00:21:19]:
Okay. So we have a little bit of time left here. I I can't let you leave, Mat, without telling us a little bit about some of the technologies you're using in in your work. I I know we we we spend a lot of time here because because of what you do around how to apply technology and how to do it in a logical way, which is awesome. I think our listeners all can gain from that. But I wanna hear a little bit about, like, what are you what are you using in your work and and and your particularly in your in your, advisory to actually do the stuff you do, day to day? How are you actually making sure you could be efficient and not because I know you've got your outcomes and your goals aligned.

Mat Winegarden [00:21:54]:
Yeah. Exactly. And I use a ton of different tools. So in the larger organization, the EdTech organization that I I work in, we use Slack constantly for, you know, communication. Sometimes we'll use it as a little bit of, you know, a placeholder thing to find stuff, but usually not. So a lot of quick communication with Slack. We also use a lot of interactive whiteboarding types of tools. So, Figma and FigJam is something that we use, to get to a visual language as quickly as possible.

Mat Winegarden [00:22:26]:
Because for me, that's one of the best ways to get aligned. So whether you're using sticky notes or workflows or, or or images or designs or whatever, that sort of, quick ability to create and erase and change something is super important. So we use that quite a bit. Mhmm. We're also pretty deep in the Atlassian suite. So we use things like Confluence, we use Jira, things like that.

Joshua McNary [00:22:51]:
Mhmm.

Mat Winegarden [00:22:51]:
In my personal consulting world, I use the Google Suite quite a bit. So, you know, for documentation, things like that. I use the, agents and AI bots that I've created, to help. And then, I also use Miro. It goes back to sort of that, you know, flexible whiteboarding types of thing

Joshua McNary [00:23:13]:
Yes. Yes.

Mat Winegarden [00:23:14]:
For, workshops and, you know, trainings. And and I hate to say it, but I also use PowerPoint quite a bit too.

Joshua McNary [00:23:23]:
We won't we won't discount you because of that.

Mat Winegarden [00:23:26]:
Alright. Yeah. Thank you. But it's actually a pretty decent and effective tool, especially when you're doing training and workshops, to try to at least give the big picture of what's happening as you're going through these sessions, and and working together.

Joshua McNary [00:23:39]:
Well, a theme there even with PowerPoint is the visual element. You mentioned the the whiteboarding tools and and being able to to bring together for different types of learners, different the visualization can can cement an idea in a in a way. And so, I mean, really, all the tools, even though even though non, specifically visual tools, you know, these these tools that last in suite, for instance, I mean, that's been designed in a way that the user interface is is is is obtainable. Right? It's got a visual component to it that allows you very quickly to move through the information and figure out what you need and find the information you need. So I I see that as a theme in a lot of the things you talked about.

Mat Winegarden [00:24:16]:
Yeah. And and it's really important, you know, and and we could probably talk about this thing that I'm about to say for a long time because it's super, super important as well, but also the accessibility piece in technology too. So it's not only just from the visual thing, which I think is really important, but it's also, you know, how do how do different folks interact with this thing, whether it's from a keyboard perspective or it's from a screen reader or, you you know, whatever that might look like for adaptive technologies to interface with technology, is really important, as well. Not only from an individual team member, but, you know, inclusivity in a larger organization.

Joshua McNary [00:24:54]:
That is something that's very easy to miss in the original alignment. Because if you're a business owner, some people always think this are like, what accessibility? Like, I'm not thinking about that. I'm thinking about, you know, selling a hundred units online next week or we're not thinking about that component. But to be able to achieve the hundred unit sales, certain percentage of those sales are gonna come from somebody that needs some kind of, accessibility component on that ecommerce site you're you're selling on or otherwise maybe won't ever buy your product if you don't do the marketing around it in a way that's gonna speak to them because of their the way they visualize it or whatever. So, like, there's an element of that that's very practical, but you aren't necessarily thinking about that when you're just like, I need to sell a hundred things on this platform that I'm trying to set up tomorrow.

Mat Winegarden [00:25:37]:
Yeah. Totally. For for a lot of organizations, it is an afterthought. For some of the large organizations that I work with, there is a government mandate to be, compliant with accessibility, rules and standards. But But here here's kind of how I think about it. So I think most people have either seen this or experienced this. On a sidewalk, a lot of the sidewalks now no longer have curbs that you step down. There's actually like the little ramps That was that that was meant for accessibility, but that actually helps a lot more people than than what you would think.

Mat Winegarden [00:26:14]:
It helps kids. It helps on a bike. It helps just walking. You know, there's less of a trip hazard. So all of these things that we think about from an afterthought with accessibility actually makes your products and services better for everyone.

Joshua McNary [00:26:28]:
Mhmm. And and and within kind of the context that we're talking about today, a lot of kind of internal application of technology and how we're strategically thinking about that, it also applies to your team. Whether you're a team of two or a team of 10 or a team of a hundred or a team of a thousand, there's going to be some adaptability required in that to communicate with different types of people. They might wanna communicate a lot via Slack because that's how they generally communicate best. Now we we put up our our our ground rules around that, But then the next person down the line, they like email because that's what they're comfortable with. And so that's the way they're gonna default to. And that's even more reason to have the ground rules because it it helps to kind of make sure people that have, attitude towards one thing or the other are pushed in the right direction. And that's, you know, it's kinda trivial to talk about in the sense of of communication styles, but but that's true when we kinda bring it back to, you know, inside our organizations.

Joshua McNary [00:27:21]:
Especially when we're talking about small organizations that there's just because you do it one way doesn't mean that you can't only be thinking about the way you want it done. You gotta think about how your team's going to interact with that or customers gonna interact with that or whatnot, in addition to the government regulations that large organizations have to do.

Mat Winegarden [00:27:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And constantly, you know, reviewing and evolving that too because things change. So how are you taking a look at not only the technology that you're currently using, but thinking about using because your needs as an organization or team is constantly your customers are constantly changing. So how are you, you know, thinking about that at the same time?

Joshua McNary [00:27:56]:
Alright, Mat. We're getting down to the end of the show here. I wanted to ask you the question that we ask all guests here, which is what's one actionable tip that you would give businesses looking to better leverage technology? And I think, you know, we have covered, a lot of things that I know are important to you around this topic, but how can you kind of wrap a bow on this or add two things with that question?

Mat Winegarden [00:28:17]:
Yeah. I've been thinking about this for a little bit, and there's a lot of, like, tips and techniques that I help teams out with overall, and there's one that kinda came to mind. So when you're thinking about either creating or buying or implementing any new technology into your organization or with your team, consider running a premortem. So maybe folks have done, like, a postmortem where you kinda reflect on things from a project once it's been done, like, what went well? Could we have done better? But sit down with your team when you're thinking about technology, define those outcomes. And then this postmortem question is, imagine it's six months from now and this tool completely failed. Why did it fail? So then you can have a conversation that surfaces your assumptions on this tool. What do we think it's gonna actually do for us? Us? See where you're misaligned, see if there's any adoption risks before you commit to this, and then hopefully really clarify going back to kind of the beginning of this, clarifying the real problem that you're trying to solve, who it's for, and then what success actually looks like. Because if you can have sort of what I call the dark side, you know, that you're exploring, right, with the technology because things went really wrong, then what does the, you know, what what what does the the the light side look like? You know? So once you actually have all of those thoughts and everybody's aligned, then you can go into technology, a little bit more successfully.

Joshua McNary [00:29:48]:
That's great. The pre mortem.

Mat Winegarden [00:29:50]:
Yeah. The pre mortem.

Joshua McNary [00:29:52]:
I I have a a post or sorry. Yeah. A post mortem. I guess I had this post mortem version of that. I ask often when I'm talking to people about technology, it'll be, well, what would be what would be out hitting it out of the park? So that's the opposite. Okay. Six months from now, we were crazy successful. So it it it will be a post mortem.

Joshua McNary [00:30:10]:
That that's the version I'm I'm asking, but I like this pre mortem because it's it is that dark side versus the likes light side element of it. And I think that could add some context and another way of thinking about it that the the postmortem does not necessarily bring out. So I think both those questions have a lot of value, and thinking about them that way. Maybe thinking about the sequencing of them, will be interesting.

Mat Winegarden [00:30:30]:
Yeah. Yeah. Totally.

Joshua McNary [00:30:31]:
Well, this has been great. Where can people find more out about you online? Yeah.

Mat Winegarden [00:30:35]:
So the best place is probably LinkedIn. So Mat Weingarten. It's Mat with one t, Weingarten. So you can also check out my personal website if you want, mattweingarten.com. And if anybody wants to nerd out about product and operations, reach out anytime. I'm happy to chat.

Joshua McNary [00:30:53]:
Perfect. Thanks for joining me today.

Mat Winegarden [00:30:55]:
Yeah. Thanks, man. It was good to be here.

Joshua McNary [00:30:56]:
Alright, folks. That's it for today. I'm Joshua McNary, and I hope you will join me again next time so you can learn how to become a biz tech superhero. Bye now.