BizTech Superhero

BTSH Joel Bennett
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Joshua McNary: [00:00:00] Welcome to the BizTech Superhero, the podcast that empowers you to unleash the technology superpowers within your business. I'm your host, Joshua McNary. I'm joined by today's superhero, Joel Bennett, owner of Veel Hoeden Consulting, an Iowa-based consultancy focusing on developing frontline leadership in blue-collar organizations.

Joshua McNary: Joel brings more than twenty years of experience in people development across a variety of industries. His work is built around a simple distinction: companies aren't really looking to invest in more leadership training. They're looking to invest in impact. Joel helps supervisors build leadership skills that translate into better communication, stronger accountability, improved team performance, and ultimately measurable business results.

Joshua McNary: A big part of Joel's approach is what he calls structured discomfort, moving leadership development beyond the classroom and creating opportunities for leaders to apply what they've learned in the real world. Rather than [00:01:00] measuring success by whether someone completed a training program, Joel looks at changes in leadership behavior and business metrics like employee turnover and engagement.

Joshua McNary: Today we'll talk about what makes frontline leadership different, why traditional leadership training often doesn't stick, and how businesses can develop what Joel calls leadership that lasts. We'll also explore leadership in our current age of work, how AI and other technologies are changing what people do while making the human side of leadership even more important, and the decisions leaders need to make about how people and technology work together.

Joshua McNary: Joel, welcome to the show.

Joel Bennett: Oh, thanks for having me, Joshua. It's great to be here

Joshua McNary: So for folks just meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Joel Bennett: My role here in Iowa is really focused around leadership. And I've had a long career in human resources and teaching and coaching. And when I started my own [00:02:00] business, I wanted to utilize those talents. And so our focus, as you mentioned, is around leadership development for typically new supervisors or inexperienced supervisors, a lot of which are in the blue collar environment.

Joel Bennett: And our whole focus there is around making meaningful behavior change. And so when somebody gets promoted into a role that they've never been in before, specifically leading other people, too often, they're just left to figure that out on their own. And it creates a lot of problems.

Joel Bennett: Often things like turnover or disengagement of their teams. And so we're really trying to help people build confidence in what it means to be a leader and, a, a manager, a supervisor, and how can they do that in such a way that they have the confidence to have coaching conversations to improve the performance of their team and really create, leadership behaviors that last

Joshua McNary: So that person that maybe is some kind of performer in their work, but then they get put into that role of leadership and they say they have never done that before or have limited [00:03:00] experience with that, but they all of a sudden are thrust into this position that them as a good procurer of their work gets put into that role, and now they have to try to get everyone else to do that what they used to do really well

Joel Bennett: Absolutely. I think, that's something in all different industries, but especially in the blue collar space, manufacturing, construction, field service people. They become really good at what they do. They're a great technician, a great, specialist a, a welder, a framer or whatever.

Joel Bennett: And then they get an opportunity to lead a crew or to be a foreman or to s- be a supervisor, and all of a sudden they realize that they're not really being measured just on the work they can do or the good work they can do, they're also being measured on whether or not they can get other people to do good work or build up a replacement for themselves or to take care of some of the performance issues that they used to just complain about it over lunch but now it's their responsibility.

Joel Bennett: And so taking that step and that leap, unfortunately in those industries for a long time, it's always been more sink or swim. And so if I promote Joshua into a role [00:04:00] like that, and he does well, then great. And if he doesn't do well, that's on Joshua. And more and more companies are recognizing that they've got, a responsibility to develop their new supervisors into great leaders.

Joel Bennett: And we love partnering with those companies and have found, great success when you have people that care about their employees and care about their supervisors, and supervisors that want to invest in themselves and really start making some meaningful change.

Joshua McNary: In the technology industry that I'm part of, we see the same themes, right? These ideas of great practitioners. I've seen it even in my own career, in my own work, my own company, myself, being good at doing things and then bringing the people along with you and being able to lead them in different ways and had, various success and failures in those ways in my own work.

Joshua McNary: I'm curious with regards to the themes that you see, like what are some of the... Are there themes, of like what are typical reasons why that transition is hard? Any kind of common situations that you [00:05:00] are resolving when you have that person that's promoted?

Joshua McNary: I imagine it can be varying based on the age of the person or the type of work they're doing and all that, but is there any general concepts that we could share with the audience here?

Joel Bennett: Yeah, there are a, a handful of variables, but I would say in general, whether you're young, you're old, you've worked for the company for a few years or 30 years when we step into new roles, the biggest thing we fear is, mistakes, failure, looking bad. And we tend then to lean on our old skill sets.

Joel Bennett: And so you get somebody who is really good at what they did, and then they get into a role, and one of two things happen. They expect other people to be just as good as they are without actually developing them, and so they get frustrated or angry or anxious about that. Or the flip side is they jump in when there's a problem and just do it themselves, and so there's no development of the team.

Joel Bennett: And partly it's a mindset change of what is it... we don't just hire managers because it seems like a good thing to do. No company that I've ever worked with has said, "You know what we really need now is [00:06:00] five or six more managers just running around here." What they typically say is, "We've got people that need some sort of stewardship that need development, that need oversight, and so we're gonna put a manager into those role, roles so they can support them."

Joel Bennett: So that mindset shift of it's not my job anymore to be the best welder. If I'm a, a weld foreman, my job is to make sure my team is equipped to be the best welders they can be, and that we can meet our goals and objectives. You mentioned in the tech sector Something we've seen quite a bit and it applies as well to construction, but you get somebody who's a great project manager, and then you put him in charge of people and invariably it sounds something like this.

Joel Bennett: Five years later somebody says Joel's a great, was a great project manager, is a great project manager, but he just can't manage people." And then the conversation ends. That's, there's a black hole there that everything gets sucked into. Instead of saying what have we done to help Joel be a better people manager?"

Joel Bennett: I would say the other piece is when I get [00:07:00] leaders who've been promoted who at some point say, "I don't know if I wanna do this anymore, it's hard." The hard part of it is coaching people. And so I know that there's a performance issue that's going on, it's been going on for a while. I've tried ignoring it, I've tried, kinda hoping and praying it's gonna go away.

Joel Bennett: Or maybe I push around the edges of it. But I never actually sit down with the person and say, "Hey, there's an issue here. I wanna see you be successful in this role and I'm seeing some things that aren't gonna allow you to be successful in it, so let's talk about that. Let's actually develop some sort of a plan to get you from where you're at to where you need to be."

Joel Bennett: Because most of us don't like those conversations, right? I don't wanna have a conversation with Joshua that he's not doing well enough in his role or, truthfully, that maybe he's in a spot that I put him in because I haven't developed him well enough. So to be able to sit down and go, "Man, this is not where I want it to be.

Joel Bennett: I'm gonna have to probably tell you some things that are uncomfortable to hear. And but through that, our whole point is to help you move more towards [00:08:00] success than where you're at now. And my role in that is to remove barriers and to kinda give you a, a nudge in the right direction. It's not to be the performance cop or to beat you down because things aren't going well."

Joel Bennett: So for a lot of people, it probably focuses on those two. The mindset change and really some, building some confidence around having those performance conversations.

Joshua McNary: Those critical conversations are hard. I've, in various roles and, vocations of my life, whether it's, your kids or your, spouse sometimes, or your, your employees or your... When you're a subsidiary to a, a boss even, there's times, managing up that th- these kind of things can be difficult.

Joshua McNary: But yeah, if you're able to have that communication and bust through that and do it in a way, a, a loving way that is seen as benefiting all sides and it's not adversarial it can open up amazing doors. So I definitely could relate to what, with that, that comment there as well in my own work and seeing other companies.

Joshua McNary: And in what I do, working inside of other businesses, helping other businesses, and some of these things happen there too, right? Having to [00:09:00] say push, push one way or the other in the right way, and that helps create a whole 'nother dynamic when, you're, like you are, coming in to support them.

Joshua McNary: You have to be able to communicate the why and the reasoning for those hard questions you're asking sometimes, even as a, as an advisor like we do in our various roles. I'm also curious about the idea of who hires you. So you mentioned earlier the, there are certain businesses and organizations that get it, right? They understand what you're doing and why it's important, and then there's others that maybe are the old school way in some capacity. Maybe tell me a little about that, 'cause I think it might have some relationship to the elements of those that maybe are willing to explore technology and stuff, too.

Joshua McNary: But let's talk about more from your perspective first. Who hires you versus not? Who gets it versus not? Who's progressive versus not, in the capacity of what you do?

Joel Bennett: I love this topic, especially when you layer in the technology piece of it. But the, the thing I would say is there's very few things in our [00:10:00] lives that we buy because there hasn't been pain created by something else, right? If I want a new car, unless I just like to collect cars it's because my old car isn't, pulling its weight.

Joel Bennett: It's, I've got issues with it. It's broken down, it's whatever. Or there's risk to it, right? It's got 250,000 miles on it, and I'm worried that it may not make it much longer, right? So there's something that leads me to make that investment. The, the same thing holds true with training, and it's one of the reasons why we say that most companies don't wanna do training.

Joel Bennett: They do training because they wanna see an impact or a change. And so if we just come into a company and say, "Hey, we can offer you this one-day or five-day boot camp, and now you can cross that off the list because we've done leadership training or management training with all your employees," most of them look at that and say, "Yeah, maybe I need to do that, but I don't really wanna spend the money just to say I did it." What they really wanna do is say, "We've got a problem. We've got supervisors that aren't competent, or supervisors that have high turnover, [00:11:00] or managers in certain areas that we're getting complaints about from their own employees. And that, that pain's gotten to the point now that we're willing to pay somebody to come in and help us change it."

Joel Bennett: And so I think that pain or the need for change is really what drives companies to do it. I would say c- companies in the blue-collar space have invested in training for years, but it's typically more on the compliance, on the technical. If I'm in manufacturing, I'm bringing in somebody to do, safety training or quality training.

Joel Bennett: All those things we can jump into pretty quickly 'cause we see the value. When we start talking about leadership training or management training, all of a sudden it feels much more squishy and qualitative, not quantitative But, for them, they've invested in that. And so a lot of them have crossed the threshold to realize if all those other things can help our business, and we can find a resource or a partner that can come in and bridge the same gap, that can drive that change from a leadership perspective, it's well worth the investment. [00:12:00] Not all companies are ready for that or ready to make that jump. And it's not something I hold against them, but there are times where we'll be called by a company that says, "Hey, my CEO or my ops manager," or whatever, and it's typically an HR person that brings us in they, they said, "We need to look at this." And as we have more conversations, we realize it's more about checking a box than it is about actually driving change. And when we can, pretty early in the process we say, "Hey, this may not be a good match. Because what we're gonna ask you to do is to be fully committed to it not just, the managers that are in the class, but the organization, because we can't drive final impact or significant impact if you're not on board or if you feel like once the training's done, the learning's done or the application's done."

Joel Bennett: And so the way our courses are structured, our classes are structured, is the most meaningful part of the classes happen between the first class and the last class [00:13:00] or the next class. And so what am I doing to make sure that people along the way are practicing what we've been preaching? That can't happen in an organization where they go through the training class, get out of class, go back to the line or to a job site, and their boss is actually preaching the opposite of what we've been preaching. So to go back to your original question, the people that invest in are the ones that have decided that the pain now is worth the solution, and I think the same thing holds true for technology. I don't go looking for an AI tool unless I've said, "Huh, this manual work that I'm doing is take way too much time and stressful, and I really don't love doing it.

Joel Bennett: Now let me go see if there's a tool out there that makes my life easier."

Joshua McNary: Yes we're talking the same wavelength because I was curious who was buying your offerings because I had that same suspicion that they were similar people who would understand the approach I bring to technology, the strategic approach is how I'll summarize it to keep this short.

Joshua McNary: And you s- you said, [00:14:00] used the term check the box. So often in technology, I find people are thinking, "Yeah, let's apply the, this new whiz-bang tool." Right now it's AI is the term, just generically AI which is a very broad subject. But in the past it was mobile or it was this or it was that, whatever it might have been and they wanna check the box when they're not actually thinking about how does that affect the other aspects of, in my case, a technology stack.

Joshua McNary: And then it does play directly into people because technology is a helper to people. That's how it should be. That's how when it works the best, when it's doing its job in, in our modern times. It's a support to people. And if we're not thinking about the people that are using the technology we're missing the boat as well and so often we're siloing our decisions around a problem that we think we solved

Joshua McNary: we have the diagnosis and understand the cure and I think in your case you're bringing up the idea that part of what you're doing is you're helping them diagnose the problem when they're coming in contact with you [00:15:00] and maybe helping expand through your sales process even, expand their knowledge of what they're really asking for.

Joshua McNary: And I know I do similar in my technology work.

Joel Bennett: Yeah, maybe a parallel to that I have a good friend that runs a what I'd call manufacturing software company, without divulging too much. But one of the things they talk to their clients about a lot is, a company will say, "We need this technology, we need this software, 'cause that's gonna solve everything."

Joel Bennett: And one of the first things they'll go through in their due diligence process to say recognize that the software is only gonna work if you have a good process behind it." If you have a crappy process and now you put it in software, now you have a crappy process in software. And it's not gonna solve your problems.

Joel Bennett: The same thing happens when we talk about training, right? So if I send somebody through leadership training and I've got a bad culture or I've got other managers in upper levels of the organization that aren't going to actually operate the same way w- we're asking their frontline leaders to operate you're [00:16:00] creating...

Joel Bennett: You've got a bad process, but you're expecting the solution to solve everything else. And so w- we have to make sure that those things align. And we have had clients or at least prospects that we've talked to that said, "I don't think this is the right time. I think you need to get a few more things figured out within your organization before you do this or it is gonna feel like a waste of your money."

Joel Bennett: We want there to be a return on your investment or at least a return on your expectations. And so if your expectations are things are gonna get better around coaching employees or developing employees or holding people accountable or any of these types of things, we can't do that if some of these other factors are just gonna sabotage.

Joshua McNary: It's so important, this topic of actually understanding what you're trying to achieve, what the outcome is first regardless of what offering we're talking about. What I do or what you do, or what other people who have been on this show do, is really understanding the outcome we're trying to achieve and allowing the providers or the people that can support that to actually come in and s- and do that.

Joshua McNary: Or internally, in your existing staff actually working to, to find the [00:17:00] people that can help you achieve those outcomes, and that's part of what you're talking about there with regards to the doing the additional work required to, to kinda get to the point where someone like you maybe could come in and help them.

Joshua McNary: So with regards to technology and people and leadership and the whiz-bang tools that are out there that we think we could bring in and magically fix the problem, so much marketing and technology is... drives that. It's, it, there's the impression that the technology or tools are going to fix our problems or that they'll bring the process you were talking about with it and kinda help fix our process or give us a process.

Joshua McNary: What are you seeing in kinda the people space around technology, whether it be what people are using to help kinda support this, these leadership principles that you're helping people understand in their brain so they can apply it to the people, connection that people have or the...

Joshua McNary: how the technology [00:18:00] is being used inside of organizations with regards to the work that you're doing, helping people connect the dots between how they're working with people, or for that matter, how we're able to track results of the organizations that I know it's important to your work and what you do

Joel Bennett: Yeah, it's hard to separate at times, especially now, but I think this has always been the case, that where technology starts and ends in regards to people, right? We're always looking for ways to, support people to help them, drive more efficiency, more quality, all those types of things. When it comes to the people space around leadership I do think some of these tools can be really helpful. I'm somebody who's been utilizing ChatGPT, Claude, a number of different tools for a while. Some of them I use well, some of them not so well, maybe not as well as I should. One of the things that I've seen as an interesting application of the technology is when, a manager needs to have one of those coaching conversations, is to utilize one of the AI tools to actually [00:19:00] help them go through iterations of that, right?

Joel Bennett: It's almost like an interviewing skills chatbot. But in this case, it's the, I need to have a conversation with this person around this walk through with that with me and be the other person and I'll say what I'm gonna say and you say what you would say, and then we just go through this until I get comfortable.

Joel Bennett: So those tools exist and I think they can be helpful. There are other tools out there that essentially provide coaching, right? Where, you... whether it's a big name or somebody else in my industry that may say, "I'm gonna create this custom chatbot that utilizes all of our work, and as questions come up, it can give good advice." Here- here's where things get a little bit tricky, is AI technology can do a good job of kind of teeing up what needs to happen, but it can't necessarily hit the ball for you. And so what I've actually seen people do is they go through and go to ChatGPT and say, "Hey, I've got an employee that's doing X. I need to have a [00:20:00] conversation about this.

Joel Bennett: What should I say?" And so then, of course, it spits out a lot of good information, and the person looks at it and says, "Yeah, that's good, but what about this?" And they go through multiple iterations. They have this amazing document or this amazing dialogue that's happened, and then they move to a different window, and then they go home, and they come back the next day, and the problem still exists, and they've got this great framework that they should be using, but they can't push themselves to actually sit down and have the conversation.

Joshua McNary: It's just we could do some busy work, or we think we're doing work towards it. Maybe there is value, Joel, in the idea of doing that from a standpoint of just allowing us to get one, one smudge closer to having that conversation

Joel Bennett: And I think it's valuable. Like I said, sometimes it helps me collect my thoughts. It helps me as I hear them say it, I can recognize that maybe that doesn't sound as adversarial or as punitive as what I thought it would, right? And how do I make sure I do this [00:21:00] from the right space with the right tone?

Joel Bennett: And I think AI can be an incredible tool for that if we wanna talk about AI. What it doesn't do is it doesn't do the work for you, and I think this is where people get scared about, maybe, fut- what the future looks like for AI and what it means for people, and is it a good thing for people, and are we gonna s- cede too much responsibility to AI for decision-making and then step back on the sidelines and, not wanna do it?

Joel Bennett: If you're not comfortable raising the issue, if you're not comfortable, sitting down because you have the best interests of your employees at heart, it doesn't matter how much AI has a great tool for you or great information for you if you're not willing to kinda cross that threshold.

Joel Bennett: And there's a double-edged maybe a two-sided coin, I should use that analogy to this, which is great tool, great information, but you also have to have a great manager, great leader. And when you put those two things together, it can be positive. I think when we see things like companies who have had reduction in forces or have had to let people go, [00:22:00] and all of a sudden now they're utilizing tools to send emails that are super, cold and sterile to employees that have worked there for 15 years and 20 years there's we've ceded our responsibility and accountability, right?

Joel Bennett: And I do worry at times that managers think that if I can use an AI tool to type up the email to tell the employee that they're not doing a good job and they need to, pick up the pace or, put more effort into it, we lose an opportunity for relationship or an improved relationship, coaching relationship that would actually keep them or actually nudge them toward the gain that we want them to see, versus I had all the right words and those words got put out there and now I hope again that things improve.

Joshua McNary: What I find interesting about this and what's coursing through my brain right now is the idea of keeping the organic intelligence in the artificial intelligence, or I'm not sure that's the right way to phrase what I'm trying to say. But the idea of us [00:23:00] using our mushy brains to make sure that we're staying in the driver's seat around these tools, especially when we're dealing with other mushy brains that are out there, not the artificial ones, the, the ones that are here in, in time and space, and allow us to s- not delegate or abdicate the responsibility that you're talking about.

Joshua McNary: But use these tools to help us, which is the drumbeat that I keep telling people in recent times about artificial intelligence, is making sure we're staying, us humans are staying at the center, and use these as tools, just like we did with all the other technological revolutions that have happened in our lifetime.

Joshua McNary: This one is-- feels unique in, in-- because of the way the technology works and what it's capable of, how fast it's moving. But we also have seen this play out in other capacities in our lifetime. So how do we leverage what we learned from that and apply it to this? And this is one of the lessons, is is not to see [00:24:00] the avatar in social media as the person.

Joshua McNary: It, it's-- there's still actually a person there. And if we can try to keep the humanness behind that as much as we are when we're using AI to help us prepare for a meeting, a hard conversation, I think that is would do us all pretty well.

Joel Bennett: Yeah. If I simplify it for me when I think about this, it's people issues should be solved by people. I can collaborate with technology to prepare me to solve that problem, but at the end of the day, a, a people problem needs to be solved by a person. And I think that's where when we move more into the debate around technology or even just how do we utilize it well, I think we need to keep that in mind, is that the squishy, organic people side of this is what makes the conversation so tough, right?

Joel Bennett: If I had AI treat, come up with that great message, I may say it to Joshua and he says, "Perfect. That's great." And I say it to somebody else, and they're like, "Are you kidding me? Do you not... Do you know me at all?" 'Cause we're all so unique, and our [00:25:00] styles are unique, and our personalities are unique.

Joel Bennett: That's where that human side of it needs to come in

Joshua McNary: I'm curious if the conversation we had earlier here about who gets what you're doing with regards to the, the type of leadership support that you're providing is, or perhaps the type of technology support that I provide, has any relationship to how they view these tools. The idea of adding in these technology tools as the quick fix if that is actually the same people who don't get what you're doing and vice versa.

Joshua McNary: The ones that do get what you're doing are the ones that are more willing to nurture these tools and/or maybe they're not using them yet because they recognize that they don't know how to make them work in a way that is human.

Joel Bennett: I'm trying in my head to draw a pretty direct or s- or clear correlation there. What I would say is there are probably companies that we work with that are leading maybe [00:26:00] even sometimes on the bleeding edge of technology that also get the leadership component, and there are probably others that are laggards to technology but get the people component of this.

Joel Bennett: The... I would say the, the overlap between those two companies is they, we talk about superpowers they recognize that their people are their superpower. And whether it's people using technology or people just using, and I'm being silly here, but rocks and sticks to get things done the people are the ones that move the business.

Joel Bennett: The people are the ones that set the business up for success,

Joshua McNary: doesn't matter either way. It's still about the people.

Joel Bennett: Yeah, it's still about people. And truthfully, the flip side of that is the companies that will come to us who I don't think are a good fit are the ones where they say those things "The people matter," and, "The people are our greatest asset."

Joel Bennett: And maybe they believe it to a point, but they've actually structured the company in a way that people are a means to an end, or people enable our technology, or people... So when they get that flipped, I think that's where we start to get into [00:27:00] some, some problem areas or some trouble spots

Joshua McNary: I think with that, we'll get to the final question that I like to ask everyone here on the show, and that is, what is one actionable tip you would give businesses looking to better leverage technology?

Joel Bennett: I would say the biggest tip I would give, something that's very actionable or practical is when it comes to new technology start small and miss small. This whole thought process of I've seen too many people that will jump into AI and try to build this huge, big, gaudy thing that's gonna change their business, change their lives, and then they recognize that they've just built something that looks really cool but is also super complicated.

Joel Bennett: And most of the change that we make in our lives is small, right? If I wanna lose 20 pounds, it's not because I did 20 new things right off the bat. It's I'm typically doing one thing really well and adding something to that as I go. It's the same [00:28:00] thing as I've been working with ChatGPT and Claude and some other great tools that are out there.

Joel Bennett: It's like let me have it do research for me that I can then vet and think through, or let me ask, have it ask me good questions so I can ponder this more deeply. And I do that and it works, and I'll probably do more of it. If I do that and it doesn't work, I'll be like, "Okay it's not like I bet my whole business on this."

Joel Bennett: It's not like I asked it to create training content for me that, I'm not... What I'm really doing is I'm gonna aim small and miss small. And if anything, I'm gonna fail fast. Some of the best tools that I've had are created through AI. Some dashboards and summary updates and all those kind of things that just help me run my business better were because I watched somebody do the same thing and thought what if I built this little thing and it saved me five minutes a day?" And if I do that over the course of the week, it's only saving me 25, 30 minutes, but it's working, right? And there have been plenty of those that I've done that [00:29:00] I say, "That actually provides no value at all," or, "It actually creates more problems for me than I thought." But I'm glad I did the experiment because now I can try something else small.

Joel Bennett: And as you do that over time, those little small investments tend to reap bigger gains.

Joshua McNary: That is great advice as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, as a technology user. And I appreciate what you're saying there 'cause I definitely have seen that with client work and in my own work, and it's easy to aim too high with these tools because we have that impression again that we talked about earlier of like what we think should be happening or the box we're trying to check, or we have this big massive problem we're trying to address, and it does take individual steps in technology and then back to the people.

Joshua McNary: It's the same way with people. It takes intentional, regular movement and actions towards that outcome that you've defined to actually achieve those things. So I think that's a, a great way to wrap up what we've talked [00:30:00] about today.

Joshua McNary: This has been great. Where can people find out more about you online?

Joel Bennett: Sure. Probably the easiest way is to connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find our information on our company on there as well. But I always love to start with a conversation, so understanding not only what you do, but also the kind of needs that you have so we can support you in the right way.

Joel Bennett: So LinkedIn is a place I spend a lot of time. Love connecting with people there

Joshua McNary: Perfect. Thanks for joining me today

Joel Bennett: Absolutely. Thanks for having me

Joshua McNary: All right, folks. That's it for today. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on any of the popular directories, tell a friend about what you've learned here on Biz Tech Superhero, and subscribe to my e-newsletter at mcnarymarketing.com/subscribe. Thanks for listening. I'm Joshua McNary, and I hope you will join me again next time so you can learn how to become a Biz Tech superhero.

Joshua McNary: Bye now.

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